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Discussion Starter #1
While browsing some of the other forums I saw that there were questions regarding the price difference of COSC grade watches vs. the non-COSC counterparts. It seems to me that Invicta who now is in the top 15 of submissions for COSC certified movements still is the best bang for the buck. Keeping in mind that as far as I know COSC movements still have to be modified and the noticeable quality difference in the new Reserve line why is it that Invicta has not tried to force the issue with joining the top tier brands? I'm being serious with this questions for discussion purposes so serious responses would be appreciated.:thumbup1:
 

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Well, Invicta isn't quite ready to move into the top-tier brand. The Reserve Collection, based on the one piece I own, is very close. Very impressive. But just a bit shy of the true luxury brands in quality.
Also, the luxury brands' price points begin at the high end of Invicta's price range. It is very difficult to be perceived as a high-end watch maker when you are selling $89 timepieces, too.
Just look at Seiko, which is a true manufacturer in the Swiss sense of the word. Most watch geeks give the brand little respect - which is a shame - because of the mass produced aspect of their model line. Outside the watch community (here in the US) few know of the Seiko Spring Drive and Grand Seiko lines, which are as fine as you'll ever see.

One last point: COSC certification doesn't guarantee a good watch, merely a tested movement. I have some COSC ETA 2892 movements in decidedly low-end/midrange cases with bracelets to match.

That's my take on it.
 

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True, Seiko is their own worst enemy in one sense. Being that they sell watches at just about every price range. Their marketing has really hurt them in the US being that they only really market their mid-range quartz here vs their mid/high range autos has given them the image of a 2-400 dollar watch only. Invicta is going to struggle with the same thing, while it seems they are moving up market , they still sell a lot of $100 range divers that will probably taint a "higher" end image they may be trying to make. I believe though that Invicta is turning around some of their QC issues along with some CS issues.
As far as an COSC vs. Non. It is cool to have a COSC watch, it is only a certificate of the "new" accuracy of a watch. It is doubtful a watch will always be that accurate and like Boscoe said, it always doesn't promise a great watch, just a well adjusted or in the ETA's case, modified movement. I don't believe the SW200's have grades like the ETA's do. Personally, unless a model is only offered in a COSC variation that I like, I'll go non for now. If it is worth it to you, by all means get it and enjoy it, to me, accuracy isn't that important, I rarely check mine.
 

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From Genius Planet.............

What does a COSC certification or Chronometer rating on a watch really mean?

While highly touted, a COSC certification or Chronometer rating on a mechanical (manual wind or automatic) watch really doesn't mean all that much anymore. Most any modern mechanical watch from a luxury watch brand is capable of operating at the performance level tested to receive these certifications.

People frequently mistake a chronometer rating as an absolute guarantee of performance to a particular specification -- usually the often quoted -4 to +6 seconds per day which is actually only one of the seven performance measurements used in the test. In fact, the certification testing is nothing more than an additional quality control test that the movement in the watch passed at some time in the past, long before it was even assembled into your watch. It is not a guarantee that the watch will never deviate outside a particular range. In fact, mechanical watches are normal to deviate--that's why the chronometer rating exists in the first place. The range of these tests was established decades ago, when the average mechanical watch was nowhere near as accurate as they are today.

Imagine getting an A+ in math in high school and then being expected to never ever make a mathematical mistake the rest of your life. That's not how performance tests work. They only certify that you have proven once to have achieved a specific measure of performance under reasonable conditions. They neither mandate that you can never vary below that level in the future, nor do they prove that someone else who did not take that same test can never meet or exceed your level of performance. But having once established that you can achieve that level, the certification gives greater public confidence that you can perform similarly well in the future.

Same with your mechanical watch. It may have passed a test in the past, showing it was capable of getting an A+ in performance. But the actual day-to day performance of any mechanical watch--certified or not--can change a lot based on how well the watch is wound, what position it is left in overnight on your dresser, whether it takes a significant bump during the day and other factors. So do not give tremendous amount of weight to the significance of these certifications. In particular, do not assume that a specific watch is inferior because it lacks a certification--it did not take the test and fail, it simply never took this optional extra test.

The reason that some watches are still submitted for these certifications is more as a marketing and sales tool among competing brands. The presence of a certification can give you a small measure of additional confidence in the selection of your watch, but nothing more than that. Most any mechanical watch from a premium brand, when adjusted properly, will perform to within the certification ratings.


I happen to agree with this asessment. Too many watches certified as COSC dilutes the meaning of it. It does add a premium price wise and I suspect that is why it is done, MARKETING.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
So if for instance Invicta created a new line without It's name being attached to it. Would any of you think differently? I ask this because IMO being associated with Invicta seems to hurt. Really if the Reserve brand had another name on it would anyone respect the it more subjectivity? does the Reserve line suffer by having Invicta attached to it?
 

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The number of COSC certified movements Invicta sells is miniscule compared to the top tier brands, and the fact that they're #15 or whatever is not that impressive when you look at the # of units.

Otherwise, what Boscoe said.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
The number of COSC certified movements Invicta sells is miniscule compared to the top tier brands, and the fact that they're #15 or whatever is not that impressive when you look at the # of units.

Otherwise, what Boscoe said.
IMO I still think it's impressive. Taking into account how long these other companies have been in existance. I'm not taking away from these companies just saying that just 4 years ago Invicta was not even on the list. That alone I agree does not put them in the top elite but looking where Invicta started it is still IMO impressive.
 

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Invicta is and has always been a value oriented watch. I like that. It does not bother me that they make inexpensive watches. Seiko does the same. So do many other brands that we all buy routinely. They are good quality watches that service their owners well which is exactly what a watch was made to do.
 

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So if for instance Invicta created a new line without It's name being attached to it. Would any of you think differently? I ask this because IMO being associated with Invicta seems to hurt. Really if the Reserve brand had another name on it would anyone respect the it more subjectivity? does the Reserve line suffer by having Invicta attached to it?
If I saw a Reserve watch without the Invicta name, my comments would still be the same. You may recall my initial - and current - assessment of the Reserve (based on the only one I have ever seen in person, the one I own) is pretty darn positive.

Objectively, it's not in the Omega, Bedat, Clerc, Patek, IWC, Corum, Breitling and on and on league. For the moment. COSC certification not withstanding. This is more an issue of fit and finish - which on the Reserve is very, very good - than movement and accuracy.

For example, Invicta offered a gigantic COSC Pro Diver (The Admiral as I recall) that sold for about $600. Taking The Lalo at his own word, the fit and finish on that piece is/was inferior to any Reserve offering. So COSC isn't the sole criteria for determining the quality of a watch or a brand, especially when the brand doesn't manufacture the movement.

These comments are not a knock against Invicta. I don't think the Reserve line's Invicta heritage hurts - just the opposite, in fact. It plays into a very loyal (and forgiving) fan base. The crown issues would kill the infant "Reserve" before it even learned to walk.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
If I saw a Reserve watch without the Invicta name, my comments would still be the same. You may recall my initial - and current - assessment of the Reserve (based on the only one I have ever seen in person, the one I own) is pretty darn positive.

Objectively, it's not in the Omega, Bedat, Clerc, Patek, IWC, Corum, Breitling and on and on league. For the moment. COSC certification not withstanding. This is more an issue of fit and finish - which on the Reserve is very, very good - than movement and accuracy.

For example, Invicta offered a gigantic COSC Pro Diver (The Admiral as I recall) that sold for about $600. Taking The Lalo at his own word, the fit and finish on that piece is/was inferior to any Reserve offering. So COSC isn't the sole criteria for determining the quality of a watch or a brand, especially when the brand doesn't manufacture the movement.

These comments are not a knock against Invicta. I don't think the Reserve line's Invicta heritage hurts - just the opposite, in fact. It plays into a very loyal (and forgiving) fan base. The crown issues would kill the infant "Reserve" before it even learned to walk.


I agree the Admiral ain't no Reserve. But honestly do you think Invicta may just not be comfortable with formally making/stating this position(top tier comparison) regarding the Reserve line?:confused1:
 

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As much as I love 'em, I wouldn't lay out a lot of cash for an Invicta COSC. If I'm going to spend that kind of money, I'll purchase a more traditional Swiss brand that makes Swiss Made watches. Inivcta is a good value at low prices, just not willing to spend the big bucks on them.

I will say, am, that your Invicta COSC is a sharp lloking watch, and it would almost make me change my mind!
 

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i really don't care for COSC, my daytona is cosc and it runs fast, my tissot and my tagheuer aren't cosc and runs excellent. so, cosc is a commercial technique. IMO.
 

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Unless Eyal goes insane, I'm sure he'd be happy to be Seiko. Though the watchmaker in him makes him want to design great watches and probably want to be accepted by the watch community, I hope he doesn't change a thing and contiunes on his current path. Screw the snobs.
 

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Yeah, I hope they keep doin what they've been doin but I think that means more reserve models and fewer $100 models IMO. BTW, the Grand Seiko Specs are > than COSC specs anyway, more positions and temperatures as well as tighter overall accuracy specs! The Swiss don't allow outsiders into their competitions anymore.
 

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For me, it's icing on the cake. For a Reserve line watch, COSC adds a little bit of value for not that much more. A Swiss Pro Diver sells for around $350 and a Reserve sells for about $800. So you are getting a COSC certified watch with a ton of significant upgrades for not that much more. Is it necessary? Well no, but then again, mechanical watches are not practical to begin with. I think it is a heck of a deal. My COSC watch is by far my most accurate mechanical watch.
 
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