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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
My question is about the ETA Valjoux 7750 in Invicta after 2010. I read on another forum that after 2010 ETA was limited to who they could sell their movement to (not going to go into the details of that). I did know this an I read that the patent on the movement is up too. So does that mean that all these 7750's are copies? That Invicta is have them manufactured in China? Is there a way to tell if it's the real thing. The ads say ETA 7750, but that's just an ad. I'm not trying to start any bashing of the brand. I own several "swiss made" auto Invictas and very happy with them. I was just planning buying another with the 7750, but read this about the ETA 7750.

I'd like to know how many people have purchased Invicta Watches with 7750 since 2010 and if they have had quality problems.

Thanks,
ak
 

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First,from wiki, basic info on the movement, Valjoux 7750.

ETA/Valjoux 7750 automatic movement

The Valjoux 7750[9] a/k/a ETA 7750 is a widely used chronograph (stop watch) movement operated by cams integrated into the movement. The traditional mechanism used in the chronograph is known as the Column Wheel. With the advent of the Valjoux 7750, the column wheel was abandoned for a three (3) plane cam system. The three plane cam system is properly known as the Coulisse Levier mechanism. The system and movement were developed by Edmond Capt in 1970, as a fully integrated self-winding mechanism with quick-set day/date based on the Valjoux 7733.[10]

The movement is an automatic winding, twenty-five (25) jewel movement, which can be fitted with a variety of features including the triple date (day, date, month and moon phase) or a variety of two and three register models with totalizers or counters for minutes, seconds and hours.

It is available in three executions or grades: Elaborated, Top and Chronometer.
The key components which differ at the line of demarcation between Elaborated and Top are the pallet stones, balance wheel & hairspring and the regulator mechanism.

To illustrate the differences in accuracy garnered by the successive grades, consider the following specifications:
The Elaborated grade is adjusted in three positions with an average rate of +/-5 seconds/day with a maximum daily variation of +/-15 seconds/day.

the Top grade is adjusted in five positions with an average rate of +/-4 seconds/day with a maximum daily variation of +/-10 seconds/day.

The Chronometer grade must meet strict standards prescribed by the [COSC]: an average rate of -4/+6 with a maximum daily variation of +/-5 seconds/day.

Cartel investigation

In 2003 the Swiss Competition Commission launched an investigation into the business practices of ETA SA after Nicholas Hayek, then chairman of ETA parent The Swatch Group Ltd., announced in 2002 that ETA would shortly stop supplying ébauches (partial watch movements) to companies outside

The Swatch Group. Competitors complained that this would effectively put them out of business. Hayek countered that Swiss watch making companies must begin to invest in their own movement-making capabilities because it was detrimental to the long term health of the Swiss watchmaking industry to rely on one supplier, ETA, for the bulk of ébauche and parts production.

The Swiss Competition Commission ordered ETA to continue supplying ébauches to companies outside The Swatch Group during the investigation.

In 2005 the Swiss Competition Commission concluded its investigation and ordered ETA to continue delivering ébauches and parts at the then current levels until 2008, after which ETA was allowed to gradually reduce deliveries until 2010.

The Commission had found that for ébauches in the price range up to US$256, there we no real alternatives and ETA's decision to stop deliveries was a breach of Swiss law pertaining to cartels.

Although the 2005 decision has spurred some watchmakers to invest in the personnel and equipment necessary to produce movements in-house, heavy reliance on ETA continues to the present day.

The original finding has been extended, with the Swiss Competition Commission ordering in:
July 2012 that based on 2010 supply levels, ETA may reduce the level of supplied movements by,
30 percent in 2014-2015,.
50 percent in 2016-2017.
70 percent by 2018-2019.

The number of Nivarox products that must be offered will be reduced gradually, dropping by 70 percent by the year 2023.

ETA hopes to eventually reach a market position where they are allowed to freely choose to supply or not to supply parts and ébauches to competitors based solely on ETA's discretion.


Dubois-Dépraz in Switzerland, they used to work with ETA ebauches only and now started using Selitta ones and are in fact also producing their very own movements

Sellita SW500 automatic chronograph movement:
Stated to have the same level of quality and accuracy of the 7750.
For those who question the ability of Sellita to just step up and make robust, quality movements it should be known that for years Sellita used to be sent movements directly from ETA themselves, for certain modifications requested by ETA buyers.

The 25 jewel SW500 clocks in at 28,800 BPH [beats per hour] / 4Hz to give its sub second hand the same smooth sweep as the 7750.
Like its distant cousin; the option for the day / date function is also available.

From the initial looks of it, it appears that the the SW500 may be a direct drop in replacement to the 7750 [from what I can see their sizes appear to be identical; diameter of 30mm and a height of 7.90mm].

This is a benefit to watch producers who won’t want to spend the money to redesign their cases and dial configurations.
I would imagine that as the watch world becomes more familiar with the SW500 other variations will quickly become available.

Bottom line: Sellita has the SW200, SW300 and the SW500.
More and more, the movements are being used in watches, as the pond dries up, on ETA.
Oris, Tag, and many other's use Sellita's movements.

ETA & and others have used Stellita to produce their branded units.

There are others in the mix, Seagull- etc, I think Stellita will expand as ETA's shrink.


After the Dubois Depraz debacle. It really hurt Invicta's credibility with their ShopNBC customers and their business associates as well.
Nobody likes being thrown under the bus like DD was so Invicta could save face.
The entire matter blew up in their face, so it was a poor decision IMO.

Since then, Invicta has been painfully clear about what and who's movement is in the watch.


Here are some verifiable facts you might be interested in and should know:

All currently made 7750 movements have 25 jewels and operate at 28.6K BPM.
Some Valjoux movements have different configurations and have up to 27 jewels, but they have a different numerical designations as well like 7751, 7752, 7755, etc.

The patent on the 7750 Valjoux expired years ago.
The Valjoux company went out of business, and Swatch purchased the rights and the equipment to have Eta manufacture the movements again.
Eta does not have a copyright on the name Valjoux, so it can legally be used by anyone.

There are several versions of the Valjoux design being manufactured which are not Eta products, although some of them are obviously well made.
Not all of them are made or assembled in Switzerland either.

It is nearly impossible for the average customer or collector to ID which are Eta and which are other since the Eta logo has never been stamped in a visible area on any of the Valjoux movements.

The "Elaboray" (spelling?) designation recently used by several of the Invicta reps is a marketing phrase.
Eta produces several grades of the Valjoux movements, but does not call them by that term.

ETA Valjoux 7750, is offered in grades: Elaborated, Top and Chronometer.

So it is very likely these Invicta Valjoux movements are ebauche units which have been purchased unfinished, then shipped to and finished, assembled, and installed by their own contracted termiers or watch finishing houses.

Regardless, if you listen and read carefully, you will notice that ShopNBC no longer uses the Eta name when advertizing any of these Valjoux automatic chronograph watches whether they are marketed by Invicta or any other of the ShopNBC affiliated venders.


tim
 

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The real V.7750 has a ETA stamp near the balance wheel.
The 7750 from ROC don't have the ETA stamp.
The cheaper 7750 also use metal jewels.
Look closely, the Swiss 7750 are all rubies jewel.

These are the 2 simple ways I look for without taking the mov't apart.:cool1:
 

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9PM, thank you!

I learn something new everyday!

I also should have included, the message below.

Allot of people are unaware of the Swatch Controversy.
But there are allot of passionate people- WIS, that are and have something to say about it.
My post is not meant to ignite that debate in any way.

I don't have a dog in that fight.

Repectfully.
Tim

I finally used the WIS!!!!!
First Time! :biggrin:
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Thanks Timex and 9pm.
That was great info you two provided. Some of it I did know, but did not know the latest from the Swiss. The info should be add to the thread on movements and should be updated periodicaly. I just got a new Speedway with 7750 (10934) so I was concerned and still am a little. It does state 7750, 25 jewels and it does have what appears to be rubies as jewels ( they are red). It a super watch. Does not try to copy the Daytona like Invicta's other Speedways do.

You mentioned the DD movement I have the black and the silvertone verision of them, they are both over a year old with no issues. Very beefy watches.

Thanks again,

ak
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Tim,
Would you mine if I copied this to post on another forum to answer someone elses question? If not then I will not, want to ask first. I's great info.

ak
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Here's a couple pic of the Speedway 7750 (10934) I just got a week ago. Purchased from a Invicta Retainer in New York. If you look through the back under the SS back you can find the stampings, 25 Jewels, twenty five jewels, swiss, then in a different location 7750. I can't remember, one of the stamping is at the 8 o-clock and the other is at 10 o-clock position.

ak

Watch Analog watch Product Clock Silver
Watch Analog watch Clock Watch accessory Material property
 

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Good summation, Timex. (No I'm not going to quote the entire post.. LOL) "So it is very likely these Invicta Valjoux movements are ebauche units which have been purchased unfinished, then shipped to and finished, assembled, and installed by their own contracted termiers or watch finishing houses.

Regardless, if you listen and read carefully, you will notice that ShopNBC no longer uses the Eta name when advertizing any of these Valjoux automatic chronograph watches whether they are marketed by Invicta or any other of the ShopNBC affiliated venders."

I hadn't picked up on this, but then I usually record and playback at high speed. >g< I know I've passed up some good deals, but I can't watch the shows for hours at a time (especially if the wife if home - she laughs at them and me), but I go through these NBZ periods from time to time. Again, as you said, the information is out there, but this may be new to some folks, and yes, we all can learn something. I'm still waiting for an automatic in a Mid-SAS, but I don't have high hopes.

edison
 

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Regardless, if you listen and read carefully, you will notice that ShopNBC no longer uses the Eta name when advertizing any of these Valjoux automatic chronograph watches whether they are marketed by Invicta or any other of the ShopNBC affiliated venders."

I hadn't picked up on this, but then I usually record and playback at high speed. >g< I know I've passed up some good deals, but I can't watch the shows for hours at a time (especially if the wife if home - she laughs at them and me), but I go through these NBZ periods from time to time. Again, as you said, the information is out there, but this may be new to some folks, and yes, we all can learn something. I'm still waiting for an automatic in a Mid-SAS, but I don't have high hopes.
Your post made me curious. This is how the specs of the watches featuring the 7750 listed on ShopNBC:

Movement: Swiss Made ETA Valjoux 7750 Automatic w/ 25 Jewels

So they are still using ETA's name.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 · (Edited)
Timex,
So you're saying these are old adds. There are what I think are new models (maybe they are not new) that have the ETA. Aren't these Speedways model number 10934 - 10941 new models? All of these call out "coveted Swiss ETA Valjoux 7750 Automatic movement in the Product Description. I have seen cases were they misprinted the number of jewels, sometimes they 26 instead of 25.

ak
 

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I do Manufacturing, so I draw on Parallels, here.

Pre-production can take 9-months to a year, before we as consumers see it with our eye's and hands.


Making a change, is not like flipping a light switch.

Invicta has 4633 Model’s, currently.
And that number changes daily.

You have to think about the machinery involved, with getting the each model #. details, size, color, description, allot of info, for over 4633 Models.

At some point, a change is issued, "GOING FORWARD, FROM HERE, ...bla,bla,bla" scripting for teleprompters is an easy change.
The rest is not.

This screen shot below, was taken today, from shopnbc, for a BLANK page holder.
No photo of the watch, until air-time.
And for $7500. Notice ETA is missing

INVICTA RESERVE MEN'S SPECIALTY VALJOUX 7750 MOP DIAL 18K GOLD CASE STRAP WATCH - 620-259
Retail Value: $11,900.00
ShopNBC Price: $7,510.00
7:00 pm PT show on Sunday 2/24








Here's an example, of what a mistake in the details can do.

Let's say somebody post's...........
Invicta Pro Diver 8927 OB at Sam's Clubs across the nation!

After 2hrs digging, I find a that a 8927 C, or 8927 OB was never offered.
I also went thru all the Invicta Catalogs from 2006 to present, Invicta Catalog Collection
All can I come up with is the list below.
And people modding the Bezel on a 8927 from Scallop to Coin Edge, on their own.

No where in the post below, does The Poster, write "8927 OB", only in the Thread Title above.
He does write about the 8926, but not the 8927.
And I checked the Sam's Club Website, just to be sure.


Hey all!
First off, I have spent two weeks researching
the 8926 Pro Diver, and the movements that are associated with it.
The information this forum has provided has been incredible and so informative.
i had to post this because of my amazing find this morning!
I went ot my local Sam's Club this morning thinking I was going to find a Invicta 8926 Pro Diver with a Miyota 8125 movement, and instead found a 8926 Pro Diver "Coin Edge" bezel with a SEIKO Nh35a-SII movement!
I'll post pics later but Sam's still has this watch on the website!

From what I've read this watch with this movement is an amazing intro to automatic watches.

Paid $119 and could not be happier with it; it's matching my iPhone 4 on keeping time so far and am hoping that this is a long lasting investment.

Thanks again for all the invaluable information this forum has given me to make an educated decision on this purchase.


The 8927 was never offered as an "C" or "OB".
It was only offered as a Scalloped Bezel.

That the watch came in 5 options.
8926 A: all STST with a Black Face & Scalloped Bezel.
8926 C: all STST with a Black Face & Coin Edge Bezel.
8927 A: STST and Gold with a Black Face and a Scalloped Bezel.
8928 A: all STST with a Blue Face & Scalloped Bezel.
8928 C/OB: all STST with a Blue Face & Coin Edge Bezel.

I think you get the idea, you have to try & wrap your head around the Mechanics, of the operation, to comprehend it all.

It can be down right mind boggling!!!! :confused1: :crying: :scared:

Tim
 

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This screen shot below, was taken today, from shopnbc, for a BLANK page holder.
No photo of the watch, until air-time.
And for $7500. Notice ETA is missing

INVICTA RESERVE MEN'S SPECIALTY VALJOUX 7750 MOP DIAL 18K GOLD CASE STRAP WATCH - 620-259
Retail Value: $11,900.00
ShopNBC Price: $7,510.00
7:00 pm PT show on Sunday 2/24




Here is the watch, even though, ShopNBC has no pictures yet.

This will be airing on Sunday.

The 47mm case (including the buckle) is comprised of 93.78 grams of 18KT Italian gold.
Either a black or white MOP dial.
Elabore grade Valjoux 7750 automatic chronograph (day and date).
The "Elaboray" (spelling?) designation recently used by several of the Invicta reps is a marketing phrase.
Eta produces several grades of the Valjoux movements, but does not call them by that term.

ETA Valjoux 7750, is offered in grades: Elaborated, Top and Chronometer.

So it is very likely these Invicta Valjoux movements are ebauche units which have been purchased unfinished, then shipped to and finished, assembled, and installed by their own contracted termiers or watch finishing houses.

Regardless, if you listen and read carefully, you will notice that ShopNBC no longer uses the Eta name when advertizing any of these Valjoux automatic chronograph watches whether they are marketed by Invicta or any other of the ShopNBC affiliated venders.


tim




 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Sorry, but I'm either missing something or..... I think Patbosoxfan brought up a good question. I don't feel you really answer the question. You give this example, but that's a incomplete ad. I understand that ETA is not in the heading, but I have seen the ETA clearly in the Product Description, even if it isn't in the heading. Maybe I should ask, why are you making this statement, what facts do you have to make this assumption? Just curious:001_smile: Then again when I look at a Tag on the Shop, all that is stated in the Product Description is Swiss Mov't, nothing more.

ak
 

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Or is it because the 7750 mov't has always been known as Valjoux 7750.:confused1::confused1:
The current 7750 are all stamp ETA. No more VAL.
So it's ETA 7750 not Valjoux 7750 anymore.
 

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Sorry, but I'm either missing something or..... I think Patbosoxfan brought up a good question. I don't feel you really answer the question. You give this example, but that's a incomplete ad. I understand that ETA is not in the heading, but I have seen the ETA clearly in the Product Description, even if it isn't in the heading. Maybe I should ask, why are you making this statement, what facts do you have to make this assumption? Just curious:001_smile: Then again when I look at a Tag on the Shop, all that is stated in the Product Description is Swiss Mov't, nothing more.

ak

I do Manufacturing, so I draw on Parallels, here.
I used to manufacture a couple of product line's being hawked by Joy Mangano, on HSN.
Dealing with supplying Home Shopping Club, is similar to ShopNBC, which I have dealt with, but not on the Scale of Joy's demands.
It is from that FIRST HAND-EXPERIENCE, I draw certain conclusions from, Connecting Dots.




AK, after this, I'm bowing out, Respectfully, Tim.



At some point, a change is issued, "GOING FORWARD, FROM HERE, ...bla,bla,bla" scripting for teleprompters is an easy change.
The rest is not.
Stuff that’s in the pipe, or already cued up for release, is already completed, and will use the old verbiage, as released.

Think of it as a mid year production change.
Just an example...

Ford produces a 2012 Lincoln, any car, regular head lights.
Car design and pre-production started 2009.

As Engineering starts going into production, an army of people, are creating all the advertising materials, and literature for the new car.
Mid 2011, a change is made and all cars are manufactured with xenon headlights.

2012 your standing, in the dealership, holding a sales brochure, does not say anything, about the car sitting in front of you having xenon light's.

The Salesman, is explaining to you "That's new for this year, bla bla bla", pulls out a separate, supplemental flier about the xenon lights.

Ford, is not going to just scrap all the resources spent, getting the program launched, and redo it all.

"GOING FORWARD, FROM HERE, ...bla,bla,bla" so that at some point the corrected info, will filter down the pike and out to the masses.

The new sales brochures that arrive at the dealer, for the 2nd quarter of 2012, April on, have the xenon, correction in it.
Thats just one model, Invicta has 4633, with more coming every day.

Ok school is out.

I'm assuming, the next part.

Even though that $7500 watch, I used as an example, PROBABLY uses an ETA ebauche.

It's not implied, because it happened after the change.

He is why.
MERRIAM-WEBSTER: Definition of LICENSE
1
a : permission to act
b : freedom of action
2
a : a permission granted by competent authority to engage in a business or occupation or in an activity otherwise unlawful
b : a document, plate, or tag evidencing a license granted
c : a grant by the holder of a copyright or patent to another of any of the rights embodied in the copyright or patent short of an assignment of all rights

Invicta is no longer licensed by Swatch/ETA as a customer for ebauche automatic movements of any kind and hasn't been for some time now.

ETA produced Valjoux movements, are virtually all used in Swatch owned brands like Swatch, Hamilton, Tissot, and Omega.

So unless LICENSED, Invicta and any other un-licensed, non- Swatch affiliated company, can not claim to be using Elaborated Valjoux movements from ETA.

Oh then there is this little matter…….




Settled out of Court. At one time Invicta was Licensed by ETA. ($$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$)

I'm guessing on the next part:

Invicta: Hey lets $top paying for for license, but still use all rights provided by it, on all the movements we have in $tock. :sneaky2:
ETA- Hey knock that off, or we'll $ue you. :cursing:
Invicta: But I bought all these ebauches from you when I had the license, there stock. :blushing:
ETA: Ok, the stock can be ETA-7750, Elaborated Valjoux movements.
ETA: After that, no more, OK! :cool1:

DRUM ROLL PLEASE...................wait for it.................TA - DA !!!!!! :w00t:

Invicta: PROUDLY PRESENTING OUR NEW Elabore-7750 Valjoux Movement!!!! :lol::001_tt2::001_tongue:
(ELABORE - phonetically is ELABORAY)




ETA & ELABORATED: The specifics of Licensing, Registered Trademark, Copyright, Patent, and how they are applied and used by the Swatch Group, is something, I do not even begin, too pretend to have any intimate knowledge of.

7750 & VALJOUX: Their use has passed on and into, FREE DOMAIN, and can be used with out any Restrictions, Limits or Liabilities.

But based on MY EXPERIENCE, in these areas I can ASSume.
:biggrin:


Ok, I’m going to bow out of the whole Invicta –ETA discussion.
I do not whish to engage in this discussion any more.
If my points are not understood, remember, it was my opionin I was writing about.

And my opinion is just that, mine. And everyone is entitled to their own.

I like watches, and that’s what I going to stay with. :001_smile:

Personally, none of the above matters to me at ALL, when I buy a watch, it's because I like the Watch.

There are Forums with Legions of WIS-aphiles, in deep discussions on this matter.

Points of debate would be better spent with them, I have no interest in going any further on this tangent.

As Invicta would say, Have an Elabore Grade, day!

Respectfully, Tim :thumbup:

Back to watches.
 

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I was wrong.
And I stand corrected.


I think there betting anyone who buys one, won't open it up to see.

Just my opinion.


tim

 

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I don't care what they call it really. They could provide A Smokin' Hot single Swedish Chick with Loose morals to hand deliver it to my door and I still wouldn't buy it for $7500.




Probably.
 
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