How to recognize a fake sub?

2272 Views 9 Replies 9 Participants Last post by Paint42, Jan 3, 2010

moviefreak

Discussion Starter · Mar 20, 2009 (Edited)

I am just wondering what is the best way to go when doing a private deal with a submariner, and you have the advance of having the watch in your hands. What would you look for as signs that the watch might be a fake.

I know that the best way to check is also opening the case and looking at the movement, but the tips I want to get from you guys is assuming that the watch can not be opened.

From what I have read before:

1) Check the threading and rubber seal on the crown that it has to be sharp and defined.
2) Check crystal for visible scratches (should not have in the sapphire models)
3) Check serial and model between the lugs and contrast it with paperwork if possible
4) Check clasp for visible error where the flip lock closes and the clasp (it must be round and soft)
5) Check for clasp code that should make some sense according to the model year and serial of the watch
6) Check the Rolex symbol laser etching in the crystal (if possible depending on the year) + check for S letter in the etching if the crystal was replaced.
7) Check for the crown the threading (where you grab it to turn it) should be sharp and well defined.
8) If you turn the crown clock wise, the hands advance forward (??? I believe is for newer models this way)
9) Check for quick date jump by changing hour manually
10) Any tips on lettering on the dial like 300m (the m) should be right over the m in Chronometer.
11) Check the almost inaudible ticking of the movement against you ear
12) Make sure the seconds hand is not jumping in 60 times per minute
13) Check the 120 clicks of the bezel
14) Check bezel is unidirectional (anti clock wise) movement
15) Movement of the minutes hand should be smooth not jumpy when setting the hour
16) Sharp corners on the bezel markers
17) Smooth curve in the extension link lock
18) Check correct magnification 2.5x of the date under the cyclops (date should almost fill the cyclops window)
19) Printing of the date font should be sharp well printed
20) Check for weight of the watch (should not be super light)

I am sure the experts here have more tips to share that would be very useful (at least to me) when doing a hand to hand deal.

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HockeyBrand

· #2 · Mar 20, 2009

In a Private Sale - Meeting the Buyer and handling the Piece

My suggestion would be to take all the time in the world. You wouldn't immediately buy a car in a private sale without test driving it and then thinking about all the information collected for a few days, right?

Take detailed photos from all angles and post to the experts to analyze.

If the Buyer is getting antsy or pushy about you taking pics and you telling him you want to get a second opinion from experts on a Rolex Forum. Then maybe you have saved some time and can walk away from spending $3 to 5 thousand dollars.

Get the story from the Buyer of the watch's origins. Don't lookat the watch. Look at the Buyer and ask him to describe the various parts of the watch. ie. The Pearl lume, what the markers look like in the dark, how the crown operates at the positions, the rehaut engraving or the crown marker at 6 on the sapphire crytal.

In these sales, expect the Seller to Sale YOU the watch with his knowledge. Walk away if he is going to dump the piece on you and expect you to part with money by going through a checklist on your own to figure out if ou are looking at a China copy or a Grade AAAA Franken Sub.

The more questions you ask him to discuss and demonstrate the watch, will either show confidence in what he is selling or the deceit in that he knows he is trying to pass on a fake. Good luck

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bullandvodka

· #3 · Mar 20, 2009

In addition to Brandon's suggestions, I'll add my own....

Take the watch and seller to an AD with a knowledgeable on premises watchmaker and have them take the case back off to examine the movement. Looking at the movement is the only acid test I am aware of. The problem is that there are various grades of counterfeits out there and while the cheapy $40 ones are easy to spot there exist $1000 counterfeits that are all but identical. The counterfeiters out there can and have copied every known detail in these high end pieces and there is still plenty of room for 300% profit.

The one thing that does not make it economically feasible to counterfeit is the movement. Even the $1000 fakes can only dress up an ETA or other vintage movement. They can't yet recreate it.

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BLM2

· #4 · Mar 20, 2009

Also look at the Rolex "font" on the dial. It is very distinct once you get used to looking at real ones.

Lee

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jafount

· #5 · Mar 22, 2009

Subs are probably the finest out of the box master rep out there, and some are standard with gen ETA movements. Most of the stuff in the OP have been addressed and are a non-issue.

The rehaut and crown guards that are too thick at the bases and lume, are generally the tells.

The rehaut is basically the case depth. The crystal shouldn't sit so it looks like it's cutting the internal beveled edge in half, it should have a nice, smooth transition. Lume should be bright and uniform.

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NickK

· #6 · Dec 26, 2009

Rolex Sub: Weight

I had owned a Rolex Red Sub since 1986 that I unfortunately had to sell this past Spring. I really enjoyed owning that watch, partly because of the status the Rolex name carries but mostly because I was able to hold on to something so valuable for so long. I guess I looked at it more as an insurance policy.

The sale really pulled me out of a jam and now that I'm back on my feet again I'd like to replace it with a non red sub. I've been trying to become more informed on real vs. fake Subs and was wondering if the weight of a sub could be used to discern real from fake. For example: a specific model sub weighs 146.24 grams +/- .05 grams (just a swag on the weight). Is there any data on this? I'm sure 1000's of other people have thought of this too but it seams like a quick first step to weed out the fakes.

Thanks to anyone taking the time to read this post. This is a great website that has been extremely helpful to me as well as a lot of fun!

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murphy j

· #7 · Dec 28, 2009

NickK said:
I've been trying to become more informed on real vs. fake Subs and was wondering if the weight of a sub could be used to discern real from fake. For example: a specific model sub weighs 146.24 grams +/- .05 grams (just a swag on the weight). Is there any data on this? I'm sure 1000's of other people have thought of this too but it seams like a quick first step to weed out the fakes.

There is data somewhere, but just can't remember where I saw it when I was researching fake vs real sub. I know I came across it either in a link here somewhere or over at another forum dedicated to Rolex. Just keep digging and I'm sure you'll come across it.

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NickK

· #8 · Jan 2, 2010

Thanks Murphy!

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sheldonsmith

· #9 · Jan 2, 2010

From what I have gleaned on other forums:

The hands can be moved in either direction with both the Rolex and the fake. The difference is that with the genuine Rolex 31xx movements, the hands will advance time with clockwise rotation of the crown. With the fake, the hands will retard time with clockwise rotation of the crown. Perhaps we should clarify this a bit. The hands can be moved in either direction with both the Rolex and the fake. The difference is that with the genuine Rolex, the hands will advance time with clockwise rotation of the crown. With the fake, the hands will retard time with clockwise rotation of the crown.
Interestingly all my other watches, ETA movements and my Glashutte all seem to rotate opposite to Rolex's.
Older 30xx movements do move hands in a counter clockwise direction though..

------------------

From what I have come to learn, even the movements are faked on a good fake Rolex (oxymoron, I know). Best method is to purchase from an AD and / or some someone who stands behind the authenticity.

-Sheldon

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Paint42

· #10 · Jan 3, 2010

We live in a strange new age of fakes. Used to be that telling a fake from the real thing was one of one of those street skills that people enjoyed debating and practicing. But with modern technology, that's quickly becoming a thing of the past.

Now, many fakes are sophisticated watches in their own rights, and very hard to tell from the real thing. I think it's right that popping open the caseback is now the only real acid test anymore. It's getting to be the same with other kinds of collectibles too.

Even vintage videogames are commonly faked and sold on ebay now, with only popping them open being a sure way to tell if they are fakes or not. It's a sad reflection on human nature that a whole industry based on swindling people is now in full swing, and it's hurting the whole grey market for many types of items.

However, the most common and cheap fakes are still pretty recognizable with low weight metals, poor fonts and other obvious tells. But then, those you probably don't need much help spotting anyway.

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