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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
m
 

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Don't worry too much Koi. You'll have a Democrat in the office soon enough. Then I will be able to look to the government to guide me through my daily activities.
 

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When others ran the congress, he never saw a bill he did not like.


I have to wonder how anyone could agree with this veto. Pay as you go spending was what the GOP & Democrats had under Clinton and it led to surpluses. Both parties supported the paygo program. An excuse I read online today at Drudge (yes I need to be amused so I read his blog as well as faux news) put out by a member of the minority party was, “we had to spend more after 9/11. My question is why? Whatever happened to fiscal responsibility and social responsibility? In addition, today the Pope comes out against global warming. "We should not put the animals before people”? If I remember my catholic schooling, aren't all creatures the children of god?


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071212/ap_on_go_pr_wh/bush_veto

LOL! I would hardly characterize the Bubba years as "pay as you go"....Clinton had a white hot US economy to thank for any surplusses in the Federal Budget (an economy he inherited by the way....).

As to your remembering your catholic schooling, I'm fairly sure the Pope has a better grasp on the issue than you, so while you clearly don't agree with the stance, it makes more sense to just say that then question that the Pope is interpreting Catholic ideology. :001_rolleyes:

It would almost be worth enduring a democrat in the White House just so I could daily post polictically and socially charged posts like this one just to tick off Koimaster... :lol::laugh:
 

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Koi, do you truly feel as if your constitutional rights have been "stripped away" or "abused"? If so, which ones?
 

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Whatever happened to fiscal responsibility and social responsibility?
What about personal responsibility?

When my family needed health coverage, I made sure I had a job that provided that...
 

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What about personal responsibility?

When my family needed health coverage, I made sure I had a job that provided that...
Well said Steve!

I've been down on luck once or twice in my earlier years and certainly no one provided help for me. It was either get out there & take care of it or don't have it. I for one am very tired of funding social programs for people too lazy to do things themselves. People that have true & real needs are one thing, but people who just think 'well if I don't bother to get a job I'll get x, and if I get a job I'll get y, which isn't very much more, so I guess I'll just take x & spend my days watching daytime TV'... That just chaps me.. IMO EVERYONE on welfare or a 'social program' should work some type of job for the federal, state, county or local government doing something. Doesn't matter what - there's a job that needs done for all - not a shorage of work needing done by these groups. Again, certain disabled & handicapped situations aside of course - but an 'able but not willing' body? uh-no you don't.......
 

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And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
Matthew 19-24


I believe that any decent modern and civilised society should look after the poor and the needy. That doesn't mean that people should not help themselves rather that those who have more than they require should be mindful of the needs of others too. It is after all, part of loving thy neighbour imho.


Be well pals and have a special Christmas season


ZIN
 

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Alain,

I personally have no adversion to providing help for the needy. But someone who can work & decides they'd rather live on the backs of the working Americans aren't needy. Those are the ones I have a problem with, and yes - if I could I'd cut them off & not give them a dime. I know not all who are on welfare or assist programs fit into this catagory - but FAR too many of them do.

Those that truely are trying to get work or willing & trying to work, I'm more than happy to do my part to help, such as the working mom on minimum wage. But there's way too many allowed to just exist & be lazy and still get help they do not deserve. I'm unwilling to help anyone who's not willing to at least try to help themselves.
 

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I happen to agree but in many cases the cost of coverage for your dependents is too great to purchase. It then becomes do you provide a home or insurance, food or health care. Not every job can provide adequate health care coverage. A single mother of two, making minimum wage and not on welfare would not be able to afford most health care.
I've been in that position.

I got a better job...
 

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Koi, I meant you personally. Not speaking in general brush strokes here. You stated your rights were abused or stripped away. I was curious as to you personally.
 

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By using evesdropping on emails and internet traffic as well as any banking transactions over a certain dollar amount or overseas transactions, his govt has violated my rights to privacy.

As I am a business man who does both large and international transactions with clients, whose business is it how much money I have transferred or have had paid to me or my company. Who gave him the right to intercept emails going out to my clients in Europe or Asia?
 

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That may be the answer but it is not always able to be done. Many people work several jobs just to get coverage of sorts. When my wife passed away, if I had not had my own insurance for the family through the company I own, my insurance would have been in excess of $1000.00 per month to cover myself and children at the house. I can easily afford that if I had chosen that route but not many can.
I am self employed, and we were paying $1300 a month for health insurance (more than my house payment) until my wife got a new job last year that has great group plan benefits. Thankfully we could afford it, but I'd bet alot of families could not.

With the way prices for insurance, energy and food, and other things have risen, I don't see how alot of folks get by. My supposition is that they do without.
 

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Health care is a social good. It should be available to everyone. As a practicing Christian, I am loathed to think that in a modern society, health care should be denied to people simply because they cannot afford it. We are meant to be civilized and caring, not given to the law of the jungle.

I'm not saying it's a free ticket to be a burden on society but lack of means should not be used as an excuse for denial of medical aid. A government of the people, by the people, for the people should mean exactly that.


My 2c


Y'all have a nice weekend pals


ZIN
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Health care is a social good. It should be available to everyone. As a practicing Christian, I am loathed to think that in a modern society, health care should be denied to people simply because they cannot afford it. We are meant to be civilized and caring, not given to the law of the jungle.

I'm not saying it's a free ticket to be a burden on society but lack of means should not be used as an excuse for denial of medical aid. A government of the people, by the people, for the people should mean exactly that.


My 2c


Y'all have a nice weekend pals


ZIN


Very well said.:thumbup1:
 

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Actually, I do not think National Health Care is the answer. Do I have an answer? No. But, when you look at the military and Eire (Ireland), they have national health care, and it does not work IMHO. THe doctor's get paid the same no matter what. See 1 patient or 30 in one day, the pay is still the same. Try seeing a specialist or get the needed surgery, and you may as well get a snickers bar, b/c you are waiting a while.

And if it were free, everyone would be running to the doctor for every sniffle they had. That is the problem with ERs. They are overcrowded, b/c people are going there for silly things like earaches. EVERYONE should have to pay something. Ratio it out, flat fees, or something; but, the free stuff is not going to work.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Actually, I do not think National Health Care is the answer. Do I have an answer? No. But, when you look at the military and Eire (Ireland), they have national health care, and it does not work IMHO. THe doctor's get paid the same no matter what. See 1 patient or 30 in one day, the pay is still the same. Try seeing a specialist or get the needed surgery, and you may as well get a snickers bar, b/c you are waiting a while.

And if it were free, everyone would be running to the doctor for every sniffle they had. That is the problem with ERs. They are overcrowded, b/c people are going there for silly things like earaches. EVERYONE should have to pay something. Ratio it out, flat fees, or something; but, the free stuff is not going to work.


When my wife was undergoing chemo before her death last year, she had to be brought to the ER due to a adverse reaction to meds. The place was full of mexicans with coughs, sniffles and cuts. Not one real emerency. I had to demand a room for my wife away from those people so she would not pick up an infection. Maybe if we did not provide free health care, food and education to illegals, we could afford insurance for all americans.
 

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When my wife was undergoing chemo before her death last year, she had to be brought to the ER due to a adverse reaction to meds. The place was full of mexicans with coughs, sniffles and cuts. Not one real emerency. I had to demand a room for my wife away from those people so she would not pick up an infection. Maybe if we did not provide free health care, food and education to illegals, we could afford insurance for all americans.
Why do you think that illegals/low income folks use ERs? Because it IS free for them....hospitals have to take many indigent cases every year. So instead of buying a $10.00 pregnancy test, many go to the ER instead. :confused1:
 

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Discussion Starter #18 (Edited)
Why do you think that illegals/low income folks use ERs? Because it IS free for them....hospitals have to take many indigent cases every year. So instead of buying a $10.00 pregnancy test, many go to the ER instead. :confused1:

In the first place we should not be providing anything to illegals. It just reinforces the idea that they can commit a crime and get away with it. As to low income people or anyone else, if we did not have to divert resources to pay for illegals and their care, the money would be available for legal residents and citizens to have free or lower cost health care. I would not have to see homeless vets or mentally challenged people on the streets living day to day. There would be more funding for the aged and their care instead of having to see Christmas tree ornaments with a plea for a warm blanket or a Christmas meal.

In Oregon we have intermediate care where most of the populace to go to for things such as colds etc. They are open 24/7. But in any ER in the states, illegals go to there for coverage. Under current law, illegal immigrants are eligible for emergency medical services funded through the Medicaid program. They also cannot be denied an education including college, bank accounts, housing, and services such as welfare anon.

In fact in Kansas, the Federal Appeals court ruled in a drug case involving an illegal that “being illegal may not be a crime” so the court could not deny probation to the drug dealer based on that. An appeals court has concluded that just being an illegal alien in the United States doesn't necessarily violate the law, so a judge cannot deny probation and require a jail sentence for a convicted drug dealer who is an illegal alien.
The opinion from the Kansas Court of Appeals came in the Barton County case involving convicted drug dealer Nicholas L. Martinez.
The ruling found that while the laws of the United States make it illegal to enter the United States without authorization, being in the United States after entering illegally is "not necessarily a crime."

Liberal or not, I do not coddle lawbreakers nor do I suffer fools. People have different opinions on everything, that is one of things that makes us what we are, Human. With that said, deport all illegals and let them come here legally. That includes ALL illegals, regardless of country of origin. Then pass a law which clarifies the constitutional provision that allows you to become an American just because of birth here to read " if you are the child of either a legal resident or citizen" of the US.
 

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I agree with Koimaster. If they are here illegally, they should not be entitled to anything that an American Citizen or legal visitor (tourists, green card holders, visas, etc.) would be entitled to. Illegals are not immigrants, they are criminals who have committed a crime.

Other countries handle this situation much better, and it is a disgrace to see politicians on both sides avoid this issue.
 
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