I own a Portuguese 7 day automatic. I've noticed that as power reserve winds down, the watch surges forward as much as 1-2 minutes (!) compared with 6-7 days ago. Could anyone help to shed some light on this? Did anybody have similar experience with their own 5001? Thank you.
5001 accuracy
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Surges 1 to 2 minutes? That is the first I have heard of that for an IWC. Hang tight. Bill and Scott would know better; but, it seems like something is off on this one. Did you contact IWC or your AD?
It sounds like a power reserve issue--many watches will show a rate difference near/at the end of the total reserve. My suggestion is to call your dealer because this is an issue that depends on the specific movement and they may be familiar with the specific behavior of this movement.
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Below is a long winded technical explanation, but as watches run down and the tension on the mainspring is less and the watch speeds up. IWC's long main spring and adjustments / regulation compensates for isochronisms and other errors. It is normal to gain time if the watch is constantly on low power, but automatic winding watches, particularly with the Pellaton winding system, rarely stay in that state long. If you are gaining 2 minutes per day you should have you watchmaker take a look. IWC set a spec of 0 to +6 seconds per day. Watches are both adjusted and regulated by watchmakers and the factory. Now for the technical stuff:
There is a difference between adjusting and regulating a watch from an article found on the internet:
“There is a difference between regulation and adjustment. Regulation refers to the process of touching up the variable parameters on an escapement -either the moment of inertia of the balance wheel, (used by Rolex, PP, etc.) or varying the effective length of the hairspring via the adjustment lever, (used by most other watches)- so as to minimize the average rate error of the watch. This work is done by a watchmaker as part of an overhaul or almost any repair involving movement parts. It is also often required at times between overhauls, to compensate the changing viscosity of the aging lubricants in the pivots. For this work to be done properly, the balance wheel needs to be properly SET UP, i.e., positioned so that the hairspring's 'neutral point' is located at the midpoint of the balance wheel's swing. Most inexperienced watchmakers omit this task and generally get by with the omission. Hi-tech operations, such as Jack Freedman's Superior Watch Service, use sophisticated equipment to make this operation perfect and totally repeatable. Incidentally, the problem above is mostly limited to watches whose rates are regulated by fixing the length of the hairspring.
Adjustment is something generally done only by the manufacturer at the time the watch is fabricated. It refers to the meticulous balancing of the balance-wheel/hairspring system so that its center of mass is always located along the axis of the balance staff. If this is done properly, the balance wheel will be immune from perturbations or jolts in the plane of the dial and the beat frequency will be relatively constant in a number of positions. There are six positions, corresponding to the 6 faces of a transparent cube inside which the watch can be imagined to be located. It is difficult or impossible to achieve PERFECT adjustment in all six positions and all adjustments are a compromise of some sort. To save money and improve adjustment in the positions that count, i.e., those the watch is likely to find itself most often, some positions are omitted from adjustment. For a wristwatch, the most commonly omitted position is the 12-UP position, usually assumed by the owner holding the watch upright in front of his nose, but rarely assumed any other time. (The exception is truck drivers and other people who wear their watches on the inside of the wrist). For a pocket watch, the omitted position is the bow-down position (12-Down on an open-faced watch and 3-Down on a hunter case watch). The result in all these cases is a watch with adjustment for 5 positions, an excellent product. Adjustments for fewer positions are found in some watches. In such cases, adjustments are omitted for the least frequently assumed positions in actual use.”
One of the adjustments made at the factory is for isochronisms which relates to the initial question of what goes on when the watch is either fully wound or not. Here is a brief explanation of "isochronisms"
"Isochronisms, from Greek meaning "same time", is the ability of a watch to keep the same time when fully wound as when it is wound down. The problem is that when a spring is wound up, it will deliver more power than when it is almost unwound. So, when the mainspring is wound up, the balance wheel will get more energy every time it ticks causing it to swing further. But if the balance is swinging further, then it is going to take more time to travel that distance, and therefore the watch will run slower. "
Hope this is not too confusing.
Bill
There is a difference between adjusting and regulating a watch from an article found on the internet:
“There is a difference between regulation and adjustment. Regulation refers to the process of touching up the variable parameters on an escapement -either the moment of inertia of the balance wheel, (used by Rolex, PP, etc.) or varying the effective length of the hairspring via the adjustment lever, (used by most other watches)- so as to minimize the average rate error of the watch. This work is done by a watchmaker as part of an overhaul or almost any repair involving movement parts. It is also often required at times between overhauls, to compensate the changing viscosity of the aging lubricants in the pivots. For this work to be done properly, the balance wheel needs to be properly SET UP, i.e., positioned so that the hairspring's 'neutral point' is located at the midpoint of the balance wheel's swing. Most inexperienced watchmakers omit this task and generally get by with the omission. Hi-tech operations, such as Jack Freedman's Superior Watch Service, use sophisticated equipment to make this operation perfect and totally repeatable. Incidentally, the problem above is mostly limited to watches whose rates are regulated by fixing the length of the hairspring.
Adjustment is something generally done only by the manufacturer at the time the watch is fabricated. It refers to the meticulous balancing of the balance-wheel/hairspring system so that its center of mass is always located along the axis of the balance staff. If this is done properly, the balance wheel will be immune from perturbations or jolts in the plane of the dial and the beat frequency will be relatively constant in a number of positions. There are six positions, corresponding to the 6 faces of a transparent cube inside which the watch can be imagined to be located. It is difficult or impossible to achieve PERFECT adjustment in all six positions and all adjustments are a compromise of some sort. To save money and improve adjustment in the positions that count, i.e., those the watch is likely to find itself most often, some positions are omitted from adjustment. For a wristwatch, the most commonly omitted position is the 12-UP position, usually assumed by the owner holding the watch upright in front of his nose, but rarely assumed any other time. (The exception is truck drivers and other people who wear their watches on the inside of the wrist). For a pocket watch, the omitted position is the bow-down position (12-Down on an open-faced watch and 3-Down on a hunter case watch). The result in all these cases is a watch with adjustment for 5 positions, an excellent product. Adjustments for fewer positions are found in some watches. In such cases, adjustments are omitted for the least frequently assumed positions in actual use.”
One of the adjustments made at the factory is for isochronisms which relates to the initial question of what goes on when the watch is either fully wound or not. Here is a brief explanation of "isochronisms"
"Isochronisms, from Greek meaning "same time", is the ability of a watch to keep the same time when fully wound as when it is wound down. The problem is that when a spring is wound up, it will deliver more power than when it is almost unwound. So, when the mainspring is wound up, the balance wheel will get more energy every time it ticks causing it to swing further. But if the balance is swinging further, then it is going to take more time to travel that distance, and therefore the watch will run slower. "
Hope this is not too confusing.
Bill
Thanks to everyone who responded. Bill, your explanation is especially appreciated. My watch doesn't go forward 2 minutes a day, rather it accumulates these two minutes over 5-6 days sitting in the box (not worn, no winder). I also have an Ingenieur Chronograph AMG that, although not having as large power reserve as 5001, stays accurate to ±2 seconds a day. In addition, the 5001 doesn't seem to gain two minutes in equal increments: it seems to start slowly but, as power reserve winds down, it accelerates.
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2 mins a day over 6 days, is still +20, and not acceptable according to IWC standards. Nonetheless, your last statement, how it speeds up faster when it goes down seems a bit odd to me as well. have you contacted the AD or IWC?
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The last sentence makes sense. As the power reserve winds down, the watch will speed up slightly per the stuff quoted above. But it should only be slightly. If you watch on average over five days gains 20 seconds per day that is too much. How old is the watch? If new, let it settle in for a bit before jumping the gun on adjustments.
Bill
The watch is brand new. Based on what I'm reading, I'll be testing it in the different ways: put it on a winder for a week and check against electronic clock, wear it for a week straight and again record the difference. If anyone has any other suggestions, please let me know. I'll post my findings when I'm done. Thanks again.
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A watch stored dial up will gain time. A watch left crown up will be slow. Try in different positions. Have a 5001 and a 5022. I do not use a watch winder either. I manually wind them, if I have not worn them within the 7 day reserve. Part of my enjoyment is touching and feeling the watches.
Bill
OK, Here it is:
The 7 day Automatic was fully wound by hand and then stored off winder crown up. Day 1: +3 sec; Day 2 +6 sec; Day 3: +20 sec; Day 4: +23 sec; Day 5: +20 sec (can't explain this); Day 6: +26 sec. Can anyone make sense out of this? It makes me feel better that I couldn't see 1-2 minutes difference but what about 26 seconds? Is it too much?
Also, while testing the Portuguese, I was wearing Ingenieur Chrono AMG every day, approximately 10 hours a day. Over 7 days it went only 1 second faster! A question for those familiar with these two movements: what is this that makes the Ingenieur Chrono AMG so accurate?
Thank you.
The 7 day Automatic was fully wound by hand and then stored off winder crown up. Day 1: +3 sec; Day 2 +6 sec; Day 3: +20 sec; Day 4: +23 sec; Day 5: +20 sec (can't explain this); Day 6: +26 sec. Can anyone make sense out of this? It makes me feel better that I couldn't see 1-2 minutes difference but what about 26 seconds? Is it too much?
Also, while testing the Portuguese, I was wearing Ingenieur Chrono AMG every day, approximately 10 hours a day. Over 7 days it went only 1 second faster! A question for those familiar with these two movements: what is this that makes the Ingenieur Chrono AMG so accurate?
Thank you.
Hi MajorG,
The deviations you mention for the Port Auto, are they accumulated or the deviation for that day? If it is accumulated, it's not that bad...
My 5001 gains about 6 to 8 seconds per day but I wear it so often that the power reserve has not fallen below 4 days yet.
One reason why the Ingenieur movement might be more accurate is that it has a lower power reserve, that will provide a more constant amount of power.
Kind regards,
Cinq
The deviations you mention for the Port Auto, are they accumulated or the deviation for that day? If it is accumulated, it's not that bad...
My 5001 gains about 6 to 8 seconds per day but I wear it so often that the power reserve has not fallen below 4 days yet.
One reason why the Ingenieur movement might be more accurate is that it has a lower power reserve, that will provide a more constant amount of power.
Kind regards,
Cinq
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While I have never ran daily tests with mine, I can assure you that all of IWC's in-house 7-day movements are notoriously inaccurate. I own four different 7-day watches from different generations and they all advance from 1.5 to 3.0 minutes per week no matter where the power reserve is. Three of the four have been serviced and regulation did not help. They all came back either the same or worse. :sad:
As to your Ingenieur Chrono, it has an ETA-based movement. Those are almost quartz accurate or better and cannot be beat in this respect. Lately, I monitored my ceramic Doppel (378601) while I wore it for a week and it was +20 seconds after 7 days. :thumbup1:
5001 accuracy that bad?
Viken-
I haven't heard this before, can you let us know which cals you have? And IWC concurs that your accuracy of 1-3 minutes/week was acceptable? Granted I don't have one, but lately i have been very interested. Why do you have 4, you don't mind the inaccuracy?
Viken-
I haven't heard this before, can you let us know which cals you have? And IWC concurs that your accuracy of 1-3 minutes/week was acceptable? Granted I don't have one, but lately i have been very interested. Why do you have 4, you don't mind the inaccuracy?
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I don't know what IWC thinks. All my AD tells me is send it back if you are not satisfied. I don't have four identical watches. They are different, but all are based on the 5000 Calibre.
1) 500109 with a 50010 movement (18,000 bph)
2) 500201 with a 5011 movement (18,000 bph)
3) 500402 with a 5111 movement (21,600 bph)
4) 502218 with a 51613 movement (21,600 bph)
I have resigned myself to thinking that they will never be better, and as I do rotate watches very often, I tend to not see the huge deviations if I don't keep a watch worn for a whole week. Having said that, I know a few others who own 5000-based IWC's and they all claim theirs are within 1 minute per week which would be very acceptable. As they say, maybe I am just unlucky with mine... :wink:
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charlie,
you sure have quite a beautifull iwc collection.
After lusting for a portuguese for quite a while, I guess I might have to re-think purchasing one. With spending 9 grand on a watch, you would expect it to be a little more accurate than that.
you sure have quite a beautifull iwc collection.
After lusting for a portuguese for quite a while, I guess I might have to re-think purchasing one. With spending 9 grand on a watch, you would expect it to be a little more accurate than that.
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874 Posts
FWIW, my first generation 5001 advances only about 1 minute per week. That's only about 8.5 seconds a day which is quite acceptable.
Hi, my first post here! :thumbup:
I purchased one of these watches a few weeks ago, it's been one of my target watches for some time and I found this thread interesting.
I have a Microset Timer, as I service some of my collection, and I've tested the rate in all 5 positions on each of the seven 'power reserve' days. I thought you might find my results interesting....
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I think the results are very good for a 7 day PR wrist watch considering how difficult it must be to maintain constant torque from a long mainspring over 7 days... Most watches manage two days at best so this is some achievement IMHO.
The lowest PR days 1&2 are the worst and it would seem to make sense to keep the reserve no lower than two days, having said that the two critical positions of Crown Down and Crown Left are not that far off.... really a very good result :thumbup1:
Here's my watch, hope you like the pictures:
![]()
![]()
I purchased one of these watches a few weeks ago, it's been one of my target watches for some time and I found this thread interesting.
I have a Microset Timer, as I service some of my collection, and I've tested the rate in all 5 positions on each of the seven 'power reserve' days. I thought you might find my results interesting....
I think the results are very good for a 7 day PR wrist watch considering how difficult it must be to maintain constant torque from a long mainspring over 7 days... Most watches manage two days at best so this is some achievement IMHO.
The lowest PR days 1&2 are the worst and it would seem to make sense to keep the reserve no lower than two days, having said that the two critical positions of Crown Down and Crown Left are not that far off.... really a very good result :thumbup1:
Here's my watch, hope you like the pictures:
The Timer lets you take measurements pretty much instantaneously, you let the watch settle for 5 seconds or so in position then you start taking the reading, after about 60~90 seconds you have an average reading for that position.
The Microset s/w simulates a paper trace (like a Vibrograf machine) on a PC and lets you read the rate, beat and the trace can indicate a movement in good condition or one with issues. I find it invaluable. :cool1:
The Microset s/w simulates a paper trace (like a Vibrograf machine) on a PC and lets you read the rate, beat and the trace can indicate a movement in good condition or one with issues. I find it invaluable. :cool1:
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