Vintage submariner advice sought

[lofty]

Hi All,

I have the opportunity to purchase an old submariner from an elderly gentleman and would like some advice from others.

The watch belonged to his late brother and has been lying around in a drawer for years. I don't know if the watch works as it is missing the crown. The band does not appear to be original although, I believe the two pieces between the lugs may be, each piece is stamped 65 .

I have done some research and believe this watch to be a very early one made between 1956-1959 . It has a black dial with the wording Rolex oyster perpetual and down further Submariner. It does not have any crown protection lugs. It is stainless steel and in good visual condition and has "mercedes" hands. I do not know the condition of the movement as I do not possess the correct case opener.

I believe the owner would accept somewhere between $350-$500 . At this price I would be prepared to take a chance on the watch being original and restorable, but would appreciate the thoughts and advice of others with more knowledge than I .

Many thanks

Lofty

[NicholasPoole]

granted the watch is authentic i would feel awful purchasing a piece as valuable as that for pennies on the dollar

[AAKVIPER]

A picture of the dial and case would give a better idea to the members of what you are buying.
Below is a scan of a Sub similar to the one which you are describing. Lofty post a picture so we can authenticate the watch and give a value.


I would love to help you zone in on this watch, Arthur

[lofty]

Nicholas and Arthur, thanks for your responses.

I am unable to post a picture as the watch is not in my possession. However the watch is the same as the one you have posted Arthur, except it does not have the depth numbers on the face above submariner. I feel reasonably confident it is original but don't know if these early models were faked or not. As I said previously, I do not know the condition inside. It may be very good or even rusty. It is a chance I would be prepared to take if the watch is original.

Lofty

[NicholasPoole]

oooohhh no depth rating... 6204/5 exciting!! keep us posted and post pics if you get her

[AAKVIPER]

this 6536 dial has a faded depth numbers.. I have seen many dials for these early watches with completely worn away, vague or very faint 100/330 fonts..One might even needed a 10x jeweler's loupe to see the light traces of the numbers printed.

Now perchance you do have a 6204-5 model, it should have a proper "bubble back" case back feature. One sure way to tell is to look at the case from the side. If the case back is very domed or hemispherical looking then it could be an early 6204-5 Sub.
The Rolex 260 caliber housed in the 62xx models had a thicker movement plate then the Rolex 1030 and 1530 calibers..So it needed a deeper case back. Hence, the case back looks more hemispherical then the 5508 or 6536 model case backs.

Arthur

[lofty]

just a quick update. I took a punt and purchased the watch for the asking price of $500 .
I removed the band and noted the following. Between the lugs above the 12 it is impressed BREVET followed by a cross. Underneath this there is an impressed number 6205 . Between the lugs under the 6 is an impressed number which is slightly worn but the last 5 numbers appear to be 95305 . There is no evidence of there ever being depth indicator markings above submariner. There are no minute markings on the bezel between 0 and 10. The crown is missing and I do not have the correct case opening tool to remove the back, so I will not attempt to do so . The back is slightly dome shaped.
My camera has just called it a day, so I have purchased another and will post some pictures soon. Thanks for your responses so far.

Lofty

[AAKVIPER]

From what described to us the 6205..it sounds spot on...I hope to see the picture when you get a chance..The 6204-5 small 6mm crown in my opinion is a very rare no crown guard from the Submariner historical sense.

It is a sort of a transitional test bed watch for the Rolex design team. It has many bubble back features with a modern Sub look with the familiar gloss gold gilt dial with non Mercedes hands, yet having all the features of the non crown guard Sub series. In my opinion these early transitional 6204-5 were produced only a few years because the 6536 small crown was already set for production with the new 1030 caliber.

I had a 6205 and sold it for a 6536. I wish I still owned it to this day in order to complete the Submariner time line in my collection.

Arthur

[NicholasPoole]

as you said it has the mercedes hands so are the hands not original?

[lofty]

I have just got back from seeing a watchmaker who removed the back for me. The inside of the back says 6205 but the watchmaker said the calibre is 645 and the movement number is 74247 . On the rotor is says rolex perpetual and on the back of the movement is says, among other things, patented selfwinder 2 ruby jewels.
It would appear to me that this movement is not original to this case, but I will welcome the comments from others.
I have just purchased a new camera and am still fiddling around with it and hope to post some pictures soon.

Lofty